What happens when the place where expansive, meaningful, transcendental, and just simply weird conversations becomes just as important and meaningful as the conversations that began there? Esalen. We begin our conversation exploring the birth and development of The Esalen Institute and then the boundaries of the geographical container dissolve and the ideas emerge to the foreground – religion, psychology, mysticism, & psychedelics. Jeff and I discuss the founders and the origin story of Esalen, religious comparativism, the counterculture in America, Russian & United States relations through the Cold War, diplomatic solutions through psychic research, the psychological and the social/political, the influence of Asian philosophy, Tantra, plant medicine, psychology, somatic process, Aldous Huxley, Abraham Maslow, social justice, sameness and difference, cancel culture, the need for unifying language and shared understanding of difference, and the 5-times jacket prize.